How This Critter Crits
Viewing comments for Chapter 7 "Micro-Critting The Illusion Crashers"GROWTH? ADULATION? HURRY -- CHOOSE!
91 total reviews
Comment from Writingfundimension
I've been told by several professional writers that you get to be a better writer by reading good quality pieces. The only thing I would add to your statement of that, is that one can learn a great from reading great non-fiction as well. And those pesky speech tags! I've been called on using them indiscriminately more than a few times LOL.
I enjoyed this excellent chapter, Jay.
:) Bev
reply by the author on 22-May-2015
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I've been told by several professional writers that you get to be a better writer by reading good quality pieces. The only thing I would add to your statement of that, is that one can learn a great from reading great non-fiction as well. And those pesky speech tags! I've been called on using them indiscriminately more than a few times LOL.
I enjoyed this excellent chapter, Jay.
:) Bev
Comment Written 21-May-2015
reply by the author on 22-May-2015
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I hate it when I respond to a crit and it goes bye-bye! Oh well. I do want to thank you, though, for reading and I'm happy you got something out of it.
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You're welcome, Jay. :)
Comment from Dashjianta
Good advice, Jay, and written in a way that's easy for newbies and longer term writers to pick up. The dialogue tags are one of those things that still catch me out--I seem to start with too few, over compensate and wind up with too many. Or I wind up having one character saying the other's name every other sentence.
Bad dialogue can be a killer. There's one published author I used to read, whose first few books were good, who suddenly went dialogue mad, and nearly every chapter he wrote became. A: Explains the situation. B: Parrots back A's (very long winded) explanation with a few tweaks. A: (or C) Repeats explanation again in new words because, you know, readers are dumb, and maybe they didn't understand the first two times so I'd better tell them again. etc. etc. I don't know how he's still selling books.
I just have to answer this though:
"Have you ever been so enrapt by a piece of fiction that you've lost complete track of time? "
Yes. I have, though it's been a while since I found something good enough to keep me so absorbed my half hour read before sleep turns into a blinking, yawning me looking up from my book/kindle to realise the birds are singing, the sun's up and the alarm's about to go off. There were a few times whilst reviewing The Trining when I'd go 'just one more chapter' only to suddenly realise 'Sugar, it's 3am, I should be in bed.'
Sorry to whitter on. I enjoyed reading and it's all things a serious writer should be aware of.
Suggestion/thought:
as distinguishable on the page as the voice of a dear friend or spouse [could be picked out of the] (in the) din of the crowd.
--I stumbled over this sentence at first. I think it's because the bit in square brackets doesn't quite fit--maybe sub for the but in normal brackets?
mezmersnoodled
--I like that one. Will have to remember it. It has a nice sound to it.
reply by the author on 22-May-2015
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Good advice, Jay, and written in a way that's easy for newbies and longer term writers to pick up. The dialogue tags are one of those things that still catch me out--I seem to start with too few, over compensate and wind up with too many. Or I wind up having one character saying the other's name every other sentence.
Bad dialogue can be a killer. There's one published author I used to read, whose first few books were good, who suddenly went dialogue mad, and nearly every chapter he wrote became. A: Explains the situation. B: Parrots back A's (very long winded) explanation with a few tweaks. A: (or C) Repeats explanation again in new words because, you know, readers are dumb, and maybe they didn't understand the first two times so I'd better tell them again. etc. etc. I don't know how he's still selling books.
I just have to answer this though:
"Have you ever been so enrapt by a piece of fiction that you've lost complete track of time? "
Yes. I have, though it's been a while since I found something good enough to keep me so absorbed my half hour read before sleep turns into a blinking, yawning me looking up from my book/kindle to realise the birds are singing, the sun's up and the alarm's about to go off. There were a few times whilst reviewing The Trining when I'd go 'just one more chapter' only to suddenly realise 'Sugar, it's 3am, I should be in bed.'
Sorry to whitter on. I enjoyed reading and it's all things a serious writer should be aware of.
Suggestion/thought:
as distinguishable on the page as the voice of a dear friend or spouse [could be picked out of the] (in the) din of the crowd.
--I stumbled over this sentence at first. I think it's because the bit in square brackets doesn't quite fit--maybe sub for the but in normal brackets?
mezmersnoodled
--I like that one. Will have to remember it. It has a nice sound to it.
Comment Written 21-May-2015
reply by the author on 22-May-2015
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I know I answered this before. So frustrating! I haven't done anything yet on that sentence you found clunky, but I promise I will look at it. And I too think mezmersnoodled is cool!
Comment from sandragee
Great chapter. Thanks for the lesson. I confess I've been accused a time or two of unnecessary tagging, but it's your example of it that makes me realize how annoying it really is to the reader. It does a disservice to readers to be unceremoniously drag from their illusions. I'll think twice before I tag another character with the extra weight.
Great writing.
reply by the author on 22-May-2015
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Great chapter. Thanks for the lesson. I confess I've been accused a time or two of unnecessary tagging, but it's your example of it that makes me realize how annoying it really is to the reader. It does a disservice to readers to be unceremoniously drag from their illusions. I'll think twice before I tag another character with the extra weight.
Great writing.
Comment Written 21-May-2015
reply by the author on 22-May-2015
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Thank you for your kind words, Sandra. I'm glad you found my post helpful.
Comment from amahra
Really liking your new book. Another fine chapter, Jay. I'm a little bit under the weather, so have have missed some some chapters.
Have you ever been so enrapt by a piece of fiction that you've lost complete track of time? Neither have I--and thank you for being honest. [have a problem with this sentence. I know you don't mean to, be this sentence is telling readers if they say they have been too caught up in a story that they loose track of time, that they are liers.] [Be careful with aboslute truths. They seldom exists.]
I 'so' agree with your crit on speaker tags.
reply by the author on 22-May-2015
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Really liking your new book. Another fine chapter, Jay. I'm a little bit under the weather, so have have missed some some chapters.
Have you ever been so enrapt by a piece of fiction that you've lost complete track of time? Neither have I--and thank you for being honest. [have a problem with this sentence. I know you don't mean to, be this sentence is telling readers if they say they have been too caught up in a story that they loose track of time, that they are liers.] [Be careful with aboslute truths. They seldom exists.]
I 'so' agree with your crit on speaker tags.
Comment Written 21-May-2015
reply by the author on 22-May-2015
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Yeah, I hope the reader took that sentence as tongue-in-cheek. But I appreciate the warning. If I get too many people feeling the same as you, I'd better do some changing. I'm glad the rest of it is helpful.
Comment from Spiritual Echo
Your second paragraph is superb. The highest compliments I have received are those in which the reviewer, still caught up in the illusion, expresses deep concern or joy for me, with the character's resolved crisis.
I've often told writers that to achieve the authenticity of a character and a story, he must sit down at the keyboard naked, while this advice does not apply t the portion of the essay dealing with crashers, it certainly has everything to do with maintaining the intimacy between the reader and writer.
Your examples of dialogue tags, (especially the bad ones), are excellent points, coupled with overwritten paragraphs that detail a character's every move, should be in red font. In another venue, I act as an editor selecting stories to be published for an E-Zine. One story continues to live in my mind. The main character attends a masquerade ball, and the writer spent a full paragraph telling the readers how the character checked her coat and dealt with the claim ticket.
Great chapter.
I'm a little scarce lately. Don't be concerned.
reply by the author on 22-May-2015
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Your second paragraph is superb. The highest compliments I have received are those in which the reviewer, still caught up in the illusion, expresses deep concern or joy for me, with the character's resolved crisis.
I've often told writers that to achieve the authenticity of a character and a story, he must sit down at the keyboard naked, while this advice does not apply t the portion of the essay dealing with crashers, it certainly has everything to do with maintaining the intimacy between the reader and writer.
Your examples of dialogue tags, (especially the bad ones), are excellent points, coupled with overwritten paragraphs that detail a character's every move, should be in red font. In another venue, I act as an editor selecting stories to be published for an E-Zine. One story continues to live in my mind. The main character attends a masquerade ball, and the writer spent a full paragraph telling the readers how the character checked her coat and dealt with the claim ticket.
Great chapter.
I'm a little scarce lately. Don't be concerned.
Comment Written 21-May-2015
reply by the author on 22-May-2015
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Wow! What validation, Ingrid! Thank you! So many exclamation points. You bring that out in me. Sorry you won't be around so much. Hope everything's all right.
Comment from boxergirl
I think this may be your best critter yet, Jay. I know dialogue is one of the most important components used to engage the reader. I especially agree with your take on the distraction of obsessive use of speaker tags. 8-)
reply by the author on 22-May-2015
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I think this may be your best critter yet, Jay. I know dialogue is one of the most important components used to engage the reader. I especially agree with your take on the distraction of obsessive use of speaker tags. 8-)
Comment Written 21-May-2015
reply by the author on 22-May-2015
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What a nice compliment, Karen. I rather liked it, as well. I hope some good stuff will follow.
Comment from alexisleech
Another brilliant chapter to make a writer think about what they're doing. I used to think writing was mostly intuitive, and obviously more so for some than others, but everything you say is true. Being aware of it can only make your writing better (I hope!)
Finding new ways of having dialogue without unnecessary speech tags is always a challenge, and your two opposite examples make that quite clear. When I reviewed someone's work a couple of weeks ago, it had more 'he/she saids' than I'd seen in a long time. In an effort to help, I listed possible alternatives, e.g. he/she groaned, suggested, pleaded asked, cried etc, and I couldn't believe how many there were when I put my mind to it. Reviewing that piece of work probably ended up helping me more than the author!
I'm so glad you decided to let us revisit these posts. It has been very helpful.
Alexis x
reply by the author on 22-May-2015
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Another brilliant chapter to make a writer think about what they're doing. I used to think writing was mostly intuitive, and obviously more so for some than others, but everything you say is true. Being aware of it can only make your writing better (I hope!)
Finding new ways of having dialogue without unnecessary speech tags is always a challenge, and your two opposite examples make that quite clear. When I reviewed someone's work a couple of weeks ago, it had more 'he/she saids' than I'd seen in a long time. In an effort to help, I listed possible alternatives, e.g. he/she groaned, suggested, pleaded asked, cried etc, and I couldn't believe how many there were when I put my mind to it. Reviewing that piece of work probably ended up helping me more than the author!
I'm so glad you decided to let us revisit these posts. It has been very helpful.
Alexis x
Comment Written 21-May-2015
reply by the author on 22-May-2015
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Thank you, Alexis. I'm thrilled you enjoyed this and found such applicability.
Comment from Margaret Snowdon
I always learn something from
these lessons of yours, Jay - most absorbing.
I can't find an exacting - thorough - challenging - demanding - might "exact" be more appropriate here?
Margaret
reply by the author on 22-May-2015
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I always learn something from
these lessons of yours, Jay - most absorbing.
I can't find an exacting - thorough - challenging - demanding - might "exact" be more appropriate here?
Margaret
Comment Written 21-May-2015
reply by the author on 22-May-2015
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Thank you, Margaret for the catch. Yes, "exact" is much bettering. I always appreciate your fine ear. Your other ear ain't bad either.
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Tut tut - you looked!!
Comment from Adri7enne
I agree that author intrusion can burst that bubble of realism that the writer aspires to maintain. Too many speaker tags can easily burst the bubble, as do 'filler dialogues'. As real as it might sound, no one wants to read 'inane dialogue' which goes nowhere. Good points, Jay. You did a good job illustrating what you meant us to observe. Well done!
reply by the author on 22-May-2015
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I agree that author intrusion can burst that bubble of realism that the writer aspires to maintain. Too many speaker tags can easily burst the bubble, as do 'filler dialogues'. As real as it might sound, no one wants to read 'inane dialogue' which goes nowhere. Good points, Jay. You did a good job illustrating what you meant us to observe. Well done!
Comment Written 21-May-2015
reply by the author on 22-May-2015
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I so appreciate your validation, Adrienne. Thank you. This is getting some great responses.
Comment from mfowler
I'm not a great reader although I remember when I was and that connection you spoke of was truly magical. Time did stand still for moments. Steinbeck and Michener did it for me back then. There is a little of that going on on FS where some fifty word stories hold me, but not all. I must confess to reading this article with rapt attention. I found the topic fascinating and that section on rapt attention sort of inveigled me into staying attached to the text. LOL. NO, it was engrossing, for sure. My next job on FS is to edit that story you reviewed for useless tags which are there for sure. I knew of that ideal about dialogue, but you've explained why in great detail with good examples, so lesson learnt. (I hope) I had never connected the idea of distance between us as something so profoundly connected to dialogue writing. But, of course there is. We filter constantly to avoid embarrassment, judgement and intimacy. That must affect the words and tone we use.
All up this is a great chapter from which I've already drawn a wealth of useful information.
One nitpick (just to show you I was watching; and despite the fact I may be wrong): that the fictional reality his mirror is supposed to reflect back is a kind of condensed..I thought 'reflect back' may be a redundancy.
reply by the author on 21-May-2015
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I'm not a great reader although I remember when I was and that connection you spoke of was truly magical. Time did stand still for moments. Steinbeck and Michener did it for me back then. There is a little of that going on on FS where some fifty word stories hold me, but not all. I must confess to reading this article with rapt attention. I found the topic fascinating and that section on rapt attention sort of inveigled me into staying attached to the text. LOL. NO, it was engrossing, for sure. My next job on FS is to edit that story you reviewed for useless tags which are there for sure. I knew of that ideal about dialogue, but you've explained why in great detail with good examples, so lesson learnt. (I hope) I had never connected the idea of distance between us as something so profoundly connected to dialogue writing. But, of course there is. We filter constantly to avoid embarrassment, judgement and intimacy. That must affect the words and tone we use.
All up this is a great chapter from which I've already drawn a wealth of useful information.
One nitpick (just to show you I was watching; and despite the fact I may be wrong): that the fictional reality his mirror is supposed to reflect back is a kind of condensed..I thought 'reflect back' may be a redundancy.
Comment Written 21-May-2015
reply by the author on 21-May-2015
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Such perception and depth (As I told you, I have your Thumbs Up in my folder for the moment I get a fresh supply in.) And a good eye as well. I corrected the REFLECT BACK to REFLECT, so now it is no longer redundant, just dundant. Thanks my friend, Mark. I'm so happy to have you aboard.