How This Critter Crits
Viewing comments for Chapter 10 "Sweet Exegesis"GROWTH? ADULATION? HURRY -- CHOOSE!
81 total reviews
Comment from rhymer1
Excellent prose as are all in this series. I see little attempt at humor in this protion. Also, can see where it is difficult to insert.
I am in the process of accumulating a list of lousy modifiers and plan to can a review because I am so sick of writing over and over that ~ very, really, actually, almost, nearly, about, and a myriad of other boring, non-contributing, pace-slowing words, as well as 90% of passive-tense verbs need to disappear in the first edit.
I hope you are doing the same for your later chapters. Ah, dangling and nearly dangling participles as well.
Slainte, rhymer1
young girl's (even) younger brother ~ supurflous.
reply by the author on 15-Mar-2007
  |
Excellent prose as are all in this series. I see little attempt at humor in this protion. Also, can see where it is difficult to insert.
I am in the process of accumulating a list of lousy modifiers and plan to can a review because I am so sick of writing over and over that ~ very, really, actually, almost, nearly, about, and a myriad of other boring, non-contributing, pace-slowing words, as well as 90% of passive-tense verbs need to disappear in the first edit.
I hope you are doing the same for your later chapters. Ah, dangling and nearly dangling participles as well.
Slainte, rhymer1
young girl's (even) younger brother ~ supurflous.
Comment Written 15-Mar-2007
reply by the author on 15-Mar-2007
-
Thank you rhymer1 for your valuable insight into critting with your forthcoming list of lousy modifiers. And, I can dangle a participle with the best -- and worst... I'm [so] happy to have you stop by, rhymer and add your insights. Please come back. You're always welcome.
Jay
Comment from Sue-z-Q
Hi Jay:
Long ago I gave up writing in first person because I didn't want to be limited to the one POV aspect of it. When people call me down for injecting the POV of more than one character in my stories, I react badly and think: When you start selling everything you write to publishers, let me know. We'll cuss and discuss it then.
If one clings to the idea that no one other than the main character can act, react, express an idea or feeling of their own unless it's told to the reader through the main character's POV is, I think that's ridiculous.
I enjoy reading stories that use more than one character's POV, so why not use that style since I like it? That's all it is. A style.
Too many reviewers get all hung up over what sound to like a bunch of rules in a textbook.
Silly things like:
1) "One must NEVER use more than one character's POV ( as I mentioned above.)
2) "Oh my! We should NEVER use adverbs," or so I've been told by several reviewers.
Not every adverb ends in "ly" as they imply. I think one would be hard pressed to avoid all adverbs. In the following list, which is merely the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the number of adverbs there are and I've only included a few that end in "ly":
afterward, almost, always, annually, daily, even, exactly, far, fast, hourly, less, monthly, more, mortally, never, not, often, only, politically, rarely, really, seldom, sometimes, soon, tomorrow, too, very, well, yearly, yesterday & zigzag. (Some of these adverbs like zigzag can also be nouns, adjectives or verbs depending upon the context in which they're used.)
I think if all writing followed a bunch of textbook rules it would lack originality and soon become boring.
~~~ notes ~~~
[likened to—the bread of a sandwich.] Both would be icky without that skin.
[>>>but he does go into a country store and get(gets) a package of licorice, >>>] Unless that's the way the writer wrote it and you're merely quoting it.
These are just opinions so I won't dock you any stars.
This review is probably not what you're looking for, but it's my take on this chapter. I wish I could be more constructively helpful. It may inspire me to write an essay on this touchy subject, though.
Sue-z-Q
reply by the author on 15-Mar-2007
|
Hi Jay:
Long ago I gave up writing in first person because I didn't want to be limited to the one POV aspect of it. When people call me down for injecting the POV of more than one character in my stories, I react badly and think: When you start selling everything you write to publishers, let me know. We'll cuss and discuss it then.
If one clings to the idea that no one other than the main character can act, react, express an idea or feeling of their own unless it's told to the reader through the main character's POV is, I think that's ridiculous.
I enjoy reading stories that use more than one character's POV, so why not use that style since I like it? That's all it is. A style.
Too many reviewers get all hung up over what sound to like a bunch of rules in a textbook.
Silly things like:
1) "One must NEVER use more than one character's POV ( as I mentioned above.)
2) "Oh my! We should NEVER use adverbs," or so I've been told by several reviewers.
Not every adverb ends in "ly" as they imply. I think one would be hard pressed to avoid all adverbs. In the following list, which is merely the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the number of adverbs there are and I've only included a few that end in "ly":
afterward, almost, always, annually, daily, even, exactly, far, fast, hourly, less, monthly, more, mortally, never, not, often, only, politically, rarely, really, seldom, sometimes, soon, tomorrow, too, very, well, yearly, yesterday & zigzag. (Some of these adverbs like zigzag can also be nouns, adjectives or verbs depending upon the context in which they're used.)
I think if all writing followed a bunch of textbook rules it would lack originality and soon become boring.
~~~ notes ~~~
[likened to—the bread of a sandwich.] Both would be icky without that skin.
[>>>but he does go into a country store and get(gets) a package of licorice, >>>] Unless that's the way the writer wrote it and you're merely quoting it.
These are just opinions so I won't dock you any stars.
This review is probably not what you're looking for, but it's my take on this chapter. I wish I could be more constructively helpful. It may inspire me to write an essay on this touchy subject, though.
Sue-z-Q
Comment Written 15-Mar-2007
reply by the author on 15-Mar-2007
-
I hope you do write a chapter on your concerns. They are all relevant.
I trust you didn't interpret what I said to mean that I didn't like multiple POV characters, that I would discourage a writer's use of them. Not at all! I would suggest he/she be careful when using them and that they ARE (I wish we had italics here so it won't seem like I'm shouting.) used ineffectively by a lot of writers. I hesitate to say there are RULES to their proper employment, because as writers we sit head and shoulders above rules. That's intended as a big LOL, but, it's not exactly being flippant. If a writing rule is not in place simply for the ease in the "flow" and comprehension of a sentence, paragraph, scene or story, it is -- in my estimation -- a faulty or downright bogus rule. The general rule for changing from one viewpoint character to another is to do it after a scene break of a couple of spaces, or at the very least with a new paragraph. I've read some stories where a change of view point character came in the same sentence. That's just wrong. Each character has his/her own unique constellation of values, attitudes, abillities, etc. and the reader's mind must have a chance to shift seamlessly from inside one character's head to inside another's. We need to give the reader a chance to say, "okay, I see how pissed Mary's thoughts are and how she really feels about Tommy ... so now -- Oh boy! -- I'm gonna see how Tommy really and truly, deep down, feels about Mary."
Sue, I hope I can count us as writing buddies. As such, there is something I don't want to leave this response without commenting on. You wrote: " When you start selling everything you write to publishers, let me know. We'll cuss and discuss it then." As a writer who has sent a ton of stories out to publishers and got better than a ton returned, counting the rejection slips, would you really want me to accept your words as what you really meant? I know you were addressing a specific complaint -- and with reason -- but it bothers me hearing you equate publication with correctness. Love ya, girl, but I just want to make sure we're on the same page with that.
And, once again, thank you so very much. Your input is valuable to me.
Jay
PS: That was a direct quote from the short story.
-
Hi Jay:
Uh oh. I just reread my review. There I am on my soapbox again. No. I was off on my own bent and not interpreting what you said as not liking multiple POV's in a story. I know only the little you've revealed about that story and you spoke much about the POV aspects of it, but nowhere among them was the possibility of multiple POV's.
Well, I have this blasted ax to grind about that subject, among others, because I'm so tired of having them pointed out to me in my work.
However, I didn't mean to be sharpening my ax on you. I value our delightful cyber-space friendship highly and don't want to endanger that in any way a' tall. It's just that oftentimes I don't know when to keep my big mouth shut.
I wholeheartedly agree with what you say regarding it's usage here in your reply.
I'm still considering writing that essay or treatise. Trouble is that so few people will see the posting here on FanStory. It will need a catchy title like "Fuck the Rules" (Tom would probably object to that one.) You got any ideas for a title? Things that aren't among the page 1 releases get little attention, so it will also take beaucoup play bucks spent promoting it. It's an old story, isn't it? Money talks!
Remember Suzi loves ya, big guy, but now I've chawed on your ear long enough.
Your fan, Sue-z-Q
-
Thank you, Suzie. Now I feel better. I think Tom will be just fine with that title, though you'll have to submit to that over 18 clause just to read the title!
Glad you got back with me.
Jay
-
Hi Jay:
I gave some more thought to that title and although it fits perfectly, too many people will feign offense and get hung up on it without reading and hopefully absorbing the meaty substance of my work.
How about "Screw the Rules" or "To Hell with Rules." Nah! These are almost as bad as far as the adverse effect they can have on the reader and not serve me well, so I'll have to think on this.
Titles can be off-putting and if I'm going to go to all the trouble it takes to write it, I want something that grabs their interest. If an idea occurs to you, let me know.
Your fan, Sue-z-Q
PS: I'd like to borrow some of the things you state in your work if that's okay with you.
Comment from Alex in BC
jaysqyires,
Did you put this word in your title just for me, EXEGESIS?
E is for Examine the whole story first
X is for X-tract the bones of the story
E is for Energize your imagination and find the pov character
G is for Gain more knowledge about the characters
E is for Eliminate those who aren't doing the job of pov
S is for Summarize the best pov's possible emotions
I is for Intuit the deeper meanings in dialogues
S is for Summit your analysis with complete understanding of your detailed analysis
Thanks that was great, I liked it, and learned much about complex works. Mine seem so simple by your standards, maybe I can make an EXEGESIS of my work and make it better. Thanks,
Alex
reply by the author on 15-Mar-2007
|
jaysqyires,
Did you put this word in your title just for me, EXEGESIS?
E is for Examine the whole story first
X is for X-tract the bones of the story
E is for Energize your imagination and find the pov character
G is for Gain more knowledge about the characters
E is for Eliminate those who aren't doing the job of pov
S is for Summarize the best pov's possible emotions
I is for Intuit the deeper meanings in dialogues
S is for Summit your analysis with complete understanding of your detailed analysis
Thanks that was great, I liked it, and learned much about complex works. Mine seem so simple by your standards, maybe I can make an EXEGESIS of my work and make it better. Thanks,
Alex
Comment Written 15-Mar-2007
reply by the author on 15-Mar-2007
-
You did it again, Alex. You are truly amazing! Thank you for your confidence and for hanging in there with me. Hope to see you next time.
Jay
-
Ah shucks jay, it weren't nothin'. Your the one doin'g it. Keep up the good work,
-
Ah shucks jay, it weren't nothin'. Your the one doin'g it. Keep up the good work,
Comment from Lady Jane
Wow, this again, offers such a plethora of information that it is hard to digest in one sitting. I will be revisiting this again, no doubt. Good thing this is bookmarked :) Well written, writing synopsis of 'critting.' You have skills and I am glad you are sharing them. I am learning. Thank you ... Janelle
reply by the author on 15-Mar-2007
|
Wow, this again, offers such a plethora of information that it is hard to digest in one sitting. I will be revisiting this again, no doubt. Good thing this is bookmarked :) Well written, writing synopsis of 'critting.' You have skills and I am glad you are sharing them. I am learning. Thank you ... Janelle
Comment Written 15-Mar-2007
reply by the author on 15-Mar-2007
-
Janelle, it is I who am thanking you. It is so heartwarming to have people like you telling you you are getting something out of this series. You rock!
Jay
Comment from Tweedypie
Interesting, jaysquires. This was a good informative chapter. I enjoyed reading it. This chapter leaves us with something to think about. I didn't notice anything that I didn't like. Also, I didn't see anything that I could disagree with or any typing errors.
Best wishes.
reply by the author on 14-Mar-2007
|
Interesting, jaysquires. This was a good informative chapter. I enjoyed reading it. This chapter leaves us with something to think about. I didn't notice anything that I didn't like. Also, I didn't see anything that I could disagree with or any typing errors.
Best wishes.
Comment Written 14-Mar-2007
reply by the author on 14-Mar-2007
-
thank you tweedypie for your kind remarks. I'm getting used to having you aboard. Please don't jump off. The next one should be helpful.
Jay
Comment from suda
Hello Jay,
You didn't wait until Friday (smile)...all right! You really dive into it here. I don't think I have ever really thought about dissecting a short story to the naked bones before. Yes, I go through a story and can intuitively feel the greats and the not-so-greats...but you've laid it out to a depth I've never swam before. So...I have some homework to do. I have a feeling this is going to change the way I perceive a written piece...I believe my eyes will see with x-ray vision forevermore
.
Oh, I have to say 'I like that the mechanic is a female', is that petty of me?
Bravo!
Susan
reply by the author on 14-Mar-2007
|
Hello Jay,
You didn't wait until Friday (smile)...all right! You really dive into it here. I don't think I have ever really thought about dissecting a short story to the naked bones before. Yes, I go through a story and can intuitively feel the greats and the not-so-greats...but you've laid it out to a depth I've never swam before. So...I have some homework to do. I have a feeling this is going to change the way I perceive a written piece...I believe my eyes will see with x-ray vision forevermore
.
Oh, I have to say 'I like that the mechanic is a female', is that petty of me?
Bravo!
Susan
Comment Written 14-Mar-2007
reply by the author on 14-Mar-2007
-
Susan, would you believe you're the only one who mentioned the woman mechanic. I'm glad you liked that part. I'm ecstatic that you are finding the entire piece worthwhile. I dig deeper next time, so hang in there. Thanks for everything.
Jay
-
I'll make sure one of my tools will be a shovel...looking forward to your next posting.
Susan
Comment from pink
very well arranged and expressed work
all presentation is nice and impressive and very well formatted and moving
thanks for writing
p
reply by the author on 14-Mar-2007
|
very well arranged and expressed work
all presentation is nice and impressive and very well formatted and moving
thanks for writing
p
Comment Written 14-Mar-2007
reply by the author on 14-Mar-2007
-
... and thanks for reading and for your kind words about it. I hope you are able to use what you learned from it in your own critting and writing.
Jay
Comment from nor84
Once again, Thanks, Jay--From Ridgecrest. I am following this. No errors expected, nor did I find any. ****************************************
reply by the author on 14-Mar-2007
|
Once again, Thanks, Jay--From Ridgecrest. I am following this. No errors expected, nor did I find any. ****************************************
Comment Written 14-Mar-2007
reply by the author on 14-Mar-2007
-
Thank you, Ridgie. It's always good to hear from you -- especially knowing that you've read my chapter.
Jay
Comment from Wrimula Nchibinjong
Whether understood or not this title is fantastic:How This Critter Crits
I have not read all of this but I am very happy to find out that you are a professsional man of letters with very helpful advice which I in particular need. This is another type of writing altogether and I hope to find time for it and above all understandingb and enjoyment so that in particular when I review any work I should eb satisfied I know what I am doing. thank you for sharing.
reply by the author on 14-Mar-2007
|
Whether understood or not this title is fantastic:How This Critter Crits
I have not read all of this but I am very happy to find out that you are a professsional man of letters with very helpful advice which I in particular need. This is another type of writing altogether and I hope to find time for it and above all understandingb and enjoyment so that in particular when I review any work I should eb satisfied I know what I am doing. thank you for sharing.
Comment Written 14-Mar-2007
reply by the author on 14-Mar-2007
-
I am one who thanks you, Wrimula for your kind words and your support. The next session should delve deeper yet, so please stay on board, won't you?
Jay
-
I regret it is now I have had the chance to read all my replies and I may have missedwhat you refer to here.
Comment from TomandOma
Well! This is very deep and takes a lot of pondering, particularly from the father's viewpoint. I haven't read that book. Is it written in the first person or in third person.
I'm in the process of rereading Lorna Doon, (published 1869) last read when I was in the fifth grade, and about the only direct quote that I remembered was the end of one chapter. "I slept. And there was no stopping me.." Even in the fifth grade I was deeply impressed with that pithy comment.
Considering this essay of yours applied to "Lorna Doone", it's obvious the book had to be written from John Ridd's POV, but I would not have considered the point without your essay. A lot of logical thoughts in this effort.
I've got to reread this and think about it. Doris.
reply by the author on 14-Mar-2007
|
Well! This is very deep and takes a lot of pondering, particularly from the father's viewpoint. I haven't read that book. Is it written in the first person or in third person.
I'm in the process of rereading Lorna Doon, (published 1869) last read when I was in the fifth grade, and about the only direct quote that I remembered was the end of one chapter. "I slept. And there was no stopping me.." Even in the fifth grade I was deeply impressed with that pithy comment.
Considering this essay of yours applied to "Lorna Doone", it's obvious the book had to be written from John Ridd's POV, but I would not have considered the point without your essay. A lot of logical thoughts in this effort.
I've got to reread this and think about it. Doris.
Comment Written 14-Mar-2007
reply by the author on 14-Mar-2007
-
Thank you so very much, Doris. I have been looking forward to your input on this series for some time -- since Sissy spoke so highly of you. I do appreciate you. The story is in the first person, but the story definitely "belongs" to Ben, the father. The reason [I feel that] Alice Munro chose an adolescent girl as the point of view character will be explained in the next session. I hope you climb aboard for it. I'll welcome your thoughts....
Jay