2021 Script Writer of the Year
lancellot
Poet Rating
Rank: 80
Short Works Rating
Rank: 28
Novel Rating
Script Rating
Rank: 3
Review Stars
Rank: 39
Why we never learn
This video shows how much people don't learn, or perhaps some have.
)1 Notice, no one ever defines how much your "fair share" is? What's the percentage? What's the amount? They never say. Why Not?
)2 They don't say, because the answer is how much a fair share is: Fair Share=More.
3) Why is it always big business, the Billionaires, the rich, the well to do, the upper class, or the 1%...? Simple, because the emotion (deadly sin) called: envy is real. Because othering someone else, is always humans; first resort. It makes no difference if the 'difference' is class, race, money, gender or nationality. Clan separation is hardwired into people, and it can be, and often is, exploited.
RE: Why we never learn
It's rich hearing that line from Kamala, who has accepted a billion dollars from the mega-rich. She is mostly just a mindless bot though who does the bidding of her masters, putting Americans back in chains.
RE: Why we never learn
Funny how the well-off think it's just "good business management" that a man who has held the reins of power in his country, and has defrauded thousands of people out of their hard-earned money, while flying around in his private jets, and living on his private resorts, can pay nothing in income tax. And that corporate moguls can live in unimaginable luxury while screwing those who have put them there through their sweat and blood.
The really curious thing is that it's not only the well off who adopt this peculiar attitude. Oddly enough, people on average or low incomes (and sadly, often with average or low intelligence) often choose to support these parasites, no doubt because they harbor the vain desire to one day be the folk who rake in the billions; of course, they never will. That is where the true envy comes in.
Envy may be a mortal sin, greed is a far more grave one.
Reaganomics, otherwise known as trickle-down crap, is anathema to decent human beings.
2021 Script Writer of the Year
lancellot
Poet Rating
Rank: 80
Short Works Rating
Rank: 28
Novel Rating
Script Rating
Rank: 3
Review Stars
Rank: 39
RE: Why we never learn
My thread isn't about any particular politician. It is about a political and economic tactic used by politicians. One that is based on envy, deception, and ignorance.
1) Envy: Putting one group (deemed more fortunate) against another (deemed less fortunate). Then gaining the envious support on one against the other. This is commonly used in America with class, race, sex, and other characteristics. Basically, saying your group is suffering because the other group is prospering. This has been used throughout human history, usually to horrifying results.
2) Deception: Fair share, again I challenge anyone to define how much that is. And answer, why no politician who uses the phrase ever tells the public or give a number or amount.
3) Ignorance: I do not blame those not in America or who are economically uneducated for not understanding the difference between Federal US income tax, State income tax, and Capital Gains tax rates. Or why those rates are necessarily different. If people fully understood the difference and why they are, then they would understand why some rich people pay less "income tax" than a 9to5 worker. While the rich person (with investments/Capital) pays Capital gains tax, that (non-invested) 9to5 workers do not. Also, they will understand how federal tax rates work for all US citizens, and how the few rich people pay almost 50% of all federal tax income each year, or how the lowest 'wealth' class or bottom 30% pay no federal taxes each year. And when you factor in state, city, property, sales, and all the other taxes... well, again, you have to be educated in our system (which few are) to fully grasp what Reagan is saying.
RE: Why we never learn
Message edited:
Let's address Lancellot's points one-by-one:
1) It's not envy in any sensible sense of the word when one group (the less fortunate) IS suffering because of the prosperity of another group (the more fortunate), and objects to that state of affairs. This is demonstrably the case with every demographic you mention.
Class: People of an advanced social status usually posses more wealth than those of lower social status. Frequently, they obtain this wealth by exploiting those of lesser means, by using their wealth to find legal loopholes to avoid their tax obligations, and committing simple fraud by means not available to the less well-off.
Race: Historically, in many nations, not just the US, people of certain races have less social status, fewer employment options, less money and fewer educational opportunities than those of other races. This is a simple fact.
Sex: In most western nations, including the US (correct me if I'm wrong), women's wages lag behind men's by a noticeable amount. Historically, women have been denied access to certain jobs regarded as "men's work". To a lesser extent, this also applies in reverse. All of the situations described above lead to advantage for one demographic group over another, which can easily lead to suffering. Wanting equality is not envy, it is a wish for a basic human right.
2) Strange assertion regarding 'fair share': "no politician who uses the phrase ever tells the public or give a number or amount." Don't politicians in your country go to elections with details of fiscal policy (as opposed to concepts of plans), including how much they plan to tax individuals and corporations, what other taxes they plan to impose, and so forth? And even if they don't, are these details not revealed as their term progresses? Surely such details constitute what they consider a "fair share" should be? What am I missing?
3) What most economically uneducated people don't understand, as well as most economically educated ones who aren't full of greed, is why some people get away with paying little or no income tax, little or no corporate tax, and little or no capital gains tax, and yet have millions or billions in the bank.
They don't understand why it's necessary to fly politicians or corporate executives to Hawaii for two weeks, along with their family, all expenses paid, so they can attend a three hour conference on "corporate responsibility".
They have trouble, due to their limited understanding, in comprehending why it's OK for an executive to bankrupt the organization they govern, sending hundreds or thousands of their customers into appalling hardship, and still retire with a $10 million golden handshake.
They don't understand why the millions of dollars in handouts the organisation for which they work receives in government handouts and massive tax breaks never results in an extra dollar in their pocket.
They have trouble "fully grasping" what Reagan is saying because they don't understand the politics of privilege and greed.
2021 Script Writer of the Year
lancellot
Poet Rating
Rank: 80
Short Works Rating
Rank: 28
Novel Rating
Script Rating
Rank: 3
Review Stars
Rank: 39
RE: Why we never learn
Well, I did not create this thread for the sake of arguing, and sense that taking place. I would hope those who wish to fight and argue for argument's sake press skip when they see my name. I can't make them. It is only my hope.
For those who wish to speak about policies and supported facts I'm all for it.
A person doesn't get poor because another gets rich. I have no issue with how a person spends the money they earned or have. I live in America, and that is part of our liberty. I cannot speak to other countries, or those who advocate for socialism. That is not how the US functions.
I will not go into history and speak about how Germany elected a man who turned a group of people suffering after WW1 against another group who appeared to be prospering, and the horrors, normally good people allowed to take place.
As far as the rich buying jets, yachts, and taking fancy trips. Good. For the rich to buy a jet or a yacht, laborers and craftsmen must first build them. Distributors must transport them. Salesmen must sale them and make commission and profit. With that commission and profit, they in turn buy food, shelter, education, and medical care for their family. Who in turn use that education to get jobs to build houses, buildings, factories and so on.
And still no one here, who spouts about 'Fair Share" has ever stated how much that is. Not before or after an election. NEVER. It is simple used to blame one group, while not explaining anything. Those politicians will and have never stated how much the rich do pay, or how much that same politician will waste once in office.
RE: Why we never learn
"Well, I did not create this thread for the sake of arguing"
Oh, I apologise. My mistake. You created this thread so you could share the benefit of your wisdom unopposed, and people could enjoy the privilege of agreeing with you. Gotcha.
"A person doesn't get poor because another gets rich."
They most certainly do, and I have already outlined some of the ways that happens. People with money pay expensive accountants and lawyers to find tax loopholes so they can avoid contributing to the community purse, or they simply commit fraud, for example, by writing off payments to sex workers as business expenses.
When these people with obscene amounts of money do not pay their percentage in various taxes, that is money that isn't available for things like roads, public service wages, schools, hospitals and other community facilities. Since the money has to come from somewhere, taxes on those who are least able to afford them, and least able to avoid them, have to be raised. Programs that benefit workers, such as assistance with child care and health care have to be cut, affecting the well-being of the less well-off.
"That is not how the US functions."
I don't know why you expect we "foreigners" to buy your oft-repeated declaration that you represent all Americans with your ultra-conservative, greed-is-good brand of capitalism. I know enough Americans to know that is not the case. Perhaps the percentage who think like you is higher than in other countries, it is most certainly not a blanket position.
"I will not go into history and speak about how Germany elected a man who turned a group of people suffering after WW1 against another group who appeared to be prospering, and the horrors, normally good people allowed to take place."
Since you're such a history buff, you might like to do a little research into the French Revolution. You might find it enlightening.
Look, we get it. Greed is good. It's perfectly fine for 1% of the population to own 30% of all the wealth. And if people want to sip champagne while they're sunbathing on their yachts, chatting on the phone to their accountant figuring out how to screw the honest workers, more power to them.
You're entitled to express your opinion, self-serving and shortsighted as it may be. We're entitled to challenge it.
2021 Script Writer of the Year
lancellot
Poet Rating
Rank: 80
Short Works Rating
Rank: 28
Novel Rating
Script Rating
Rank: 3
Review Stars
Rank: 39
RE: Why we never learn
There is a difference between arguing and challenging.
You did not challenge anything I said.
You never answered how much a fair share is.
You never stated how a person getting rich makes another poor.
Look, I'll give you an example.
My wife recently told me that our net worth is well over a million dollars, and we can retire comfortably in three years. We were both born dirt poor to parents without a High School diploma. Technically, we can be considered rich or wealthy.
Who got poor because of our achievements and efforts?
Who got poor because of the nice SUVs we own?
Who got poor because the house we own?
Who gets poor because we flew to Hawaii or Europe and sipped wine by candlelight?
How did I screw anyone when I took advantage of every tax break allowed by law?
Please, just answer, who got poorer as we got richer? PLEASE.... make it make sense.
RE: Why we never learn
Late to this thread...
Let it be said that I agree much more with Craig's position than Lance's and that Craig has made valid points that Lance has chosen to avoid answering.
Also let it be said that others in this forum have occasionally referred to me as being naive. Maybe, but perhaps not as naive as Lance who
a) doesn't understand the meaning of the word 'fair'
and
b) takes the position that what has happened to him and his family members automatically applies to the whole of the human race.
Lance, you keep going back to wanting numbers to clarify what represents 'a fair share.' You don't see numbers, because there is no valid number that gives you the answer you want.
We can and should all understand the concept of fairness - what's good for the goose is good for the gander. In terms of tax, it is NOT fair for someone on a higher income to pay less tax (as a percentage of income) than someone on a substantially lower income.
Lance, you dutifully explain that tax is complicated and I am most heartily grateful that I don't have to cope with both federal and state income tax - I have no idea how that works and please don't attempt to enlighten me. Add in capital gains tax and here in Australia the GST (Goods and Services Tax) and a multitude of other ways in which governments separate constituents from the money and you have a recipe for unfairness because anyone who can afford an accountant obviously has an advantage.
Anyone who can afford a team of high-powered attorneys and financial managers and lawyers obviously has a massive advantage.
In short, it's never going to be totally fair BUT when it is blatantly unfair as when Trump squeaked into the White House in 2016 and promptly handed out massive tax breaks to his billionaire buddies and big corporations and less to lesser mortals. Since he has frequently suggested doing the same thing if he is re-elected I rejoice that that seems increasingly unlikely to happen.
Sincere congratulations, Lance, on making something of your life and being able to achieve 'wealthy' status. Sadly, because of 'life' I cannot claim to be of similar status. It doesn't make me bitter, I don't go around screaming "What about me?" but I DO still fight for 'FAIR' in terms of the ultra-wealthy contibuting a little more to support the have-nots in our society.
Have a lovely day!
RE: Why we never learn
>> In terms of tax, it is NOT fair for someone on a higher income to pay less tax (as a percentage of income) than someone on a substantially lower income. <<
It depends what sort of tax you are talking about, and one person's idea of fair is very different from another's. The poor and middle class do not understand how money or taxation works.
Taxing the "rich" raises the cost of goods and services for everyone else. Trickle-down economics is real.
In macro economics, a greedy rich person still benefits everyone else. Their wealth will be loaned out and diluted over time.
Increasing regulations amounts to a wealth transfer from the public to lawyers.
It is not fundamentally taxation, but government spending, that causes inflation. Inflation is a tax on anyone holding a government-issued currency, and a subsidy to anyone holding debt in that currency.
If you think your taxes are unfair, learn how to avoid them without breaking the law. The government is always happy to use and waste your money.
RE: Why we never learn
Correction - in my previous post I believe I said 'here in Australia.' Should have been 'here (in NZ) AND in Australia.'
Obviously when I said a low income earner should not may more 'tax' I meant overall taxation but it should also be true for income tax.
RELEVANT POINT - LEARN HOW TO AVOID TAXES LEGALLY
Exactly my point - the rich can do this by employing others to do it for them. It is fairly obvious that not everyone is capable of grappling with the minutiae of the tax system. It's almost as if you are saying that those of low intelligence deserve to be unfairly treated. That manual labourers and other time-poor folk are themselves to blame because they don't have the time or the resources to study the tax code.
-1- 2 3 4
